The Ethics of Linking

[merrily]

I'm uploading all my fandom links to del.icio.us (an activity that's dreadfully boring, but somehow delights the archivist in me), and I find myself faced with a dilemma.

A year or two ago, my intense love for Firefly led me to fandom. The overlap between fandoms led me from Firefly to Harry Potter. I scoffed initially, but then I found musesfool's huge and fabulous Remus/Sirius rec list: So, PoA Finally Convinced You That SB/RL Is Canon! Here's The Fic You Must Read!, and I was hooked.

And then, because I'm obsessive, I tracked down replacements for all the links on her list which had expired since 2004, when she put it up.

Mostly, the links weren't working because the authors had retooled their sites. However, there are a couple that expired because something went down and the people who wrote their fics got the hell out of Dodge. Anne P, for example, erased all traces she could find for "Whom He May Devour" because she'd gone over to... wait for it... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle fandom. (I'm trying hard not to judge. I mean, it's not like canon-HP is Art with a capital A, apologies to JKR.) I think Arabella and Firelocks (of Sugar Quill) had some kind of falling out, because their 3-part fic, "Down From The Tree", got the same treatment. (Although part two is still up on Sugar Quill, which is odd.)

The thing, though, is that nothing really dies on the interweb, and I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence. [ETA, for clarity:Found on places where the authors seem to have posted them themselves, but, at the same time, these places -- mostly mailing list archives -- are such that they can't be readily altered. I'm not talking about Wayback.]

So, the dilemma is this: do I post links? I'm leaning towards yes. The pieces were, after all, originally published online, and have been read by hundreds of people already. They probably exist on dozens of hard-drives and I'm sure that they've been printed out.

In addition, I have little patience with people who deny their previous work because they're now interested in something new. [ETA, again for clarity: And I mean precisely that, not "removed because the authors are now publishing work on paper under the same name and don't want their stuff to be confused." I realize that motivation for removing web-archived work varies.]

That said, there are articles of mine which I'm terribly embarrassed about -- stuff I wrote in highschool or my early twenties -- and the fact that they can be found through Google irritates me. Juvenalia may be interesting to researchers, but my youthful pompousity makes me blush, and the thought that various people in my life might find them is horrifying. (Same with my early erotica. It's blackmail city, I tell you.)

I think this is different than what happens when you switch fandoms, but I can understand how it's possible someone might have the same reaction to their previous fanfic efforts as I do to my unfortunate 1993 highschool essay for the Quotidien website. (And don't bother googling: I was successful in getting that one off the server.)

On the other hand, though, I'm pretty convinced by the argument that publishing your work means it no longer belongs solely to you. [ETA, again, because this was sloppy of me: I don't mean that it's "no longer your work," I mean that it takes on a life beyond you, and that it exists in other people's heads, and that it becomes part of the collective imagination.]

What do you think, o flist? Where should the line in the sand be drawn?

[ETA: Erring on the side of "not-pissing-people-off," and also "not-being-so-self-important-as-to-think-that-I'm-the-only-one-who-can-use-Google," I'm not posting the links. */unnecessary Saturday-hand-wringing* Whew. Wankery is exhausting, you know? And I'm still sitting in my pajamyas as I write this, so it's clearly time to stop.]

Comments

[wedjateye.livejournal.com]

I'm presuming that by 'tracked down' you mean you found a link that still works. I don't see much problem with posting a link, even if it is to an obscure site. After all, if you found it, so can others. I think that a line would be crossed if you knew the author didn't want the work distributed and you reposted it from your harddrive.

If the author then wants to contact the site you link to and ask for their fic to be removed, then that's their perogative.

long, semi-ambiguous response

[oddsbobs.livejournal.com]

hmmmm tricky question.

Let's say I wrote a fanfic and posted it in four different archives, which I generally do: my lj, fanfic.net (i know i know, but i'm a comment ho and someone has to show those new to fandom what real writing is like), azkaban's lair through the yahoo r/s group, and thequidditchpitch.net. If I later wanted to renounce all involvement in the fandom, I would get the fic deleted from those archives. If someone wanted to delete all their work, but only remembered to do so from one or two archives, I'd say the link is up for grabs. If they deleted it from all four, I'd say no.

There's also the tricky part concerning what the author put on their disclaimer... if they purposefully stated no archiving without permission, then you shouldn't provide a link after they disappeared. If someone else archived it without author permission, the author deleted everything but was unaware of that one archive, I would also say no to providing that link.

Technically you can't erase something from memory once you've distributed it to the masses, just like you can't take back something you've said. However, I have to disagree on your wording. publishing your work means it no longer belongs solely to you. It does belong to you... it is your intellectual property. If you go through a publishing company, there is probably a contract or something that gives the company a piece of the property. However, posting it on the web where anyone can access it does not mean it no longer belongs solely to you. You can't keep people from reading it/printing it/whatever. But it is still technically all yours. I'm not saying I don't understand what you are trying to say, I'm just telling you I disagree with the actual wording. :)

I'm kind of wandering around the issue without a concrete answer, but I guess I'd have to know where the link that you found leads to (what kind of archive, etc.)... that might help in making a decision. In general, I try to go by the author's wishes. I might technically/legally be able to do something else, but I like being polite and respectful about it. If they seriously wanted the fic gone, let it be gone. THere's thousands of other wonderful fic out there.

Also, concerning "Whom he may devour"... I thought it was a WiP never to be finished because the author left the fandom, not completely deleted by author because of new fandom. As in, she just doesn't feel like finishing it. And the link is only broken because that particular archive (red moon rising) has been shut down. Unless I'm missing something. But if it's what I think, and if you find a working link, you should use it. Did she state somewhere that she wanted all her previous work deleted?

[valiant.livejournal.com]

I'm an writer who's purposefully tried to eliminate all traces of previous fannish works from the internet. Oh, popslash. I didn't take all my stuff down because I was ashamed - although all that stuff is awful crap - but rather my RL identity was compromised and therefore I needed to take it all down and disappear.

Unfortunately, some people who had archived my fics had also dropped off the face of the internet, so I couldn't get my fics removed from said archives. Therefore you can still find some of my really old stuff out there, and it is mortifying and I wish I could have it removed. Since they're posted publicly, and all, I can't stop people linking to them and I would never say, "Hey! Don't you DARE link to this! You have no idea what you are doing for my privacy!" but at the same time, I hate that they're still available and that I have no control over it.

All that said, I don't really know! I think I'd email the author and ask if they minded the fic or whatever being recced, but I'm overly polite and I'd hate to cause anyone discomfort.

[kirby-crow.livejournal.com]

As someone very wise recently said (okay, it was keelywolfe!): if you have to ask if you Should, you probably Should Not.

The thing, though, is that nothing really dies on the interweb, and I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence.

I think whether or not to go against an author's stated (by action) wishes and post the links depends on whether or not you ever want those authors speaking to you again, or if, in fact, you mind being a wank-magnet. :) I can see where that kind of action might very easily end up on Fandom_Wank.

What do you think, o flist? Where should the line in the sand be drawn?

Again, do you actually mind that people who were once your fandom buddies, people whose work you used to admire, might be very angry with you at having put them to the trouble of tracking down their archived links and having their old stories deleted again? Because some of them will, and they won't thank you for the headache.

Courtesy, dear. We're adults here. Just send them an email and ask, and take no response as a negative answer. After all, it's better to ask beforehand than to apologize later.

[rahalia-cat.livejournal.com]

Here via a late-night friendsfriends surf, and I hope you don't mind me commenting, but this is an issue that I am facing right now.

I am in the process of taking down all of my fanfic, wherever it has been posted, because I'm now working on a novel and want none of my old (admittedly pr0n-ish) work online. I'm fine with people having it saved on their hard drives, to read when they like, but when I take my fanfic offline I want it to stay offline. Therefore I'm afraid I have issues with your following statement:

In addition, I have little patience with people who deny their previous work because they're now interested in something new.

It is often not just a case of being 'interested in something new'. For a fanfic author who has turned professional, their future career could be at stake. Even in the case of someone who is not a professional author, there could be many other reasons they wanted their fanfic offline. It might be that it could jeopardise any number of things: their job, their marriage, or their status in church.

There are many reasons why a fanfic writer might take their work offline, and denying others is probably the least of their concerns.

I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence.

They will have had their reasons for wanting that fic gone. I would hope that anyone on my friends list would respect my reasons for wanting my own fanfic gone, regardless of whether the Wayback Machine had captured it or not. I reiterate that I don't mind if they want to save a copy to read at their leisure, but re-posting it anywhere online could very well end up shattering any future career I have as a published author.

I am proud of my fanfic, and I'm glad to have had the chance to write in such great fandoms. But I want to concentrate on the future now, and on my long-held dream of seeing my name on the shelves in Waterstones and Ottakars. I don't want to spend that time worrying whether some old BDSM fic that I once wrote is going to pop up and bite me on the arse...