The Ethics of Linking

[merrily]

I'm uploading all my fandom links to del.icio.us (an activity that's dreadfully boring, but somehow delights the archivist in me), and I find myself faced with a dilemma.

A year or two ago, my intense love for Firefly led me to fandom. The overlap between fandoms led me from Firefly to Harry Potter. I scoffed initially, but then I found musesfool's huge and fabulous Remus/Sirius rec list: So, PoA Finally Convinced You That SB/RL Is Canon! Here's The Fic You Must Read!, and I was hooked.

And then, because I'm obsessive, I tracked down replacements for all the links on her list which had expired since 2004, when she put it up.

Mostly, the links weren't working because the authors had retooled their sites. However, there are a couple that expired because something went down and the people who wrote their fics got the hell out of Dodge. Anne P, for example, erased all traces she could find for "Whom He May Devour" because she'd gone over to... wait for it... the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle fandom. (I'm trying hard not to judge. I mean, it's not like canon-HP is Art with a capital A, apologies to JKR.) I think Arabella and Firelocks (of Sugar Quill) had some kind of falling out, because their 3-part fic, "Down From The Tree", got the same treatment. (Although part two is still up on Sugar Quill, which is odd.)

The thing, though, is that nothing really dies on the interweb, and I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence. [ETA, for clarity:Found on places where the authors seem to have posted them themselves, but, at the same time, these places -- mostly mailing list archives -- are such that they can't be readily altered. I'm not talking about Wayback.]

So, the dilemma is this: do I post links? I'm leaning towards yes. The pieces were, after all, originally published online, and have been read by hundreds of people already. They probably exist on dozens of hard-drives and I'm sure that they've been printed out.

In addition, I have little patience with people who deny their previous work because they're now interested in something new. [ETA, again for clarity: And I mean precisely that, not "removed because the authors are now publishing work on paper under the same name and don't want their stuff to be confused." I realize that motivation for removing web-archived work varies.]

That said, there are articles of mine which I'm terribly embarrassed about -- stuff I wrote in highschool or my early twenties -- and the fact that they can be found through Google irritates me. Juvenalia may be interesting to researchers, but my youthful pompousity makes me blush, and the thought that various people in my life might find them is horrifying. (Same with my early erotica. It's blackmail city, I tell you.)

I think this is different than what happens when you switch fandoms, but I can understand how it's possible someone might have the same reaction to their previous fanfic efforts as I do to my unfortunate 1993 highschool essay for the Quotidien website. (And don't bother googling: I was successful in getting that one off the server.)

On the other hand, though, I'm pretty convinced by the argument that publishing your work means it no longer belongs solely to you. [ETA, again, because this was sloppy of me: I don't mean that it's "no longer your work," I mean that it takes on a life beyond you, and that it exists in other people's heads, and that it becomes part of the collective imagination.]

What do you think, o flist? Where should the line in the sand be drawn?

[ETA: Erring on the side of "not-pissing-people-off," and also "not-being-so-self-important-as-to-think-that-I'm-the-only-one-who-can-use-Google," I'm not posting the links. */unnecessary Saturday-hand-wringing* Whew. Wankery is exhausting, you know? And I'm still sitting in my pajamyas as I write this, so it's clearly time to stop.]

Comments

[wedjateye.livejournal.com]

I'm presuming that by 'tracked down' you mean you found a link that still works. I don't see much problem with posting a link, even if it is to an obscure site. After all, if you found it, so can others. I think that a line would be crossed if you knew the author didn't want the work distributed and you reposted it from your harddrive.

If the author then wants to contact the site you link to and ask for their fic to be removed, then that's their perogative.

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

If the author then wants to contact the site you link to and ask for their fic to be removed, then that's their perogative.

I think that's the most sensible approach to take. And my angst turned out to be fairly moot: I uploaded the links to del.icio.us and most had already been saved by other people, because I am not the only one who is a) obsessive, b) able to use Google or c) aware of the existence of the mailing lists where early HP fanfic was circulated.

long, semi-ambiguous response

[oddsbobs.livejournal.com]

hmmmm tricky question.

Let's say I wrote a fanfic and posted it in four different archives, which I generally do: my lj, fanfic.net (i know i know, but i'm a comment ho and someone has to show those new to fandom what real writing is like), azkaban's lair through the yahoo r/s group, and thequidditchpitch.net. If I later wanted to renounce all involvement in the fandom, I would get the fic deleted from those archives. If someone wanted to delete all their work, but only remembered to do so from one or two archives, I'd say the link is up for grabs. If they deleted it from all four, I'd say no.

There's also the tricky part concerning what the author put on their disclaimer... if they purposefully stated no archiving without permission, then you shouldn't provide a link after they disappeared. If someone else archived it without author permission, the author deleted everything but was unaware of that one archive, I would also say no to providing that link.

Technically you can't erase something from memory once you've distributed it to the masses, just like you can't take back something you've said. However, I have to disagree on your wording. publishing your work means it no longer belongs solely to you. It does belong to you... it is your intellectual property. If you go through a publishing company, there is probably a contract or something that gives the company a piece of the property. However, posting it on the web where anyone can access it does not mean it no longer belongs solely to you. You can't keep people from reading it/printing it/whatever. But it is still technically all yours. I'm not saying I don't understand what you are trying to say, I'm just telling you I disagree with the actual wording. :)

I'm kind of wandering around the issue without a concrete answer, but I guess I'd have to know where the link that you found leads to (what kind of archive, etc.)... that might help in making a decision. In general, I try to go by the author's wishes. I might technically/legally be able to do something else, but I like being polite and respectful about it. If they seriously wanted the fic gone, let it be gone. THere's thousands of other wonderful fic out there.

Also, concerning "Whom he may devour"... I thought it was a WiP never to be finished because the author left the fandom, not completely deleted by author because of new fandom. As in, she just doesn't feel like finishing it. And the link is only broken because that particular archive (red moon rising) has been shut down. Unless I'm missing something. But if it's what I think, and if you find a working link, you should use it. Did she state somewhere that she wanted all her previous work deleted?

Re: long, semi-ambiguous response

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

However, I have to disagree on your wording: "publishing your work means it no longer belongs solely to you." It does belong to you... it is your intellectual property.

I knew as I was writing it that was a badly-worded statement. I meant that after you put your work out there, and other people can read it, it exists in more than just your mind, so to pretend it never happened is to also pretend that no one else can have read it and imagined it and been part of it. Which is dumb.

Did she state somewhere that she wanted all her previous work deleted?

I couldn't find it in black and white for Anne P (now Dawnatello), who didn't respond to queries, but the actions she took (deleting all evidence of her involvement in HP fandom from her own website, and deleting all archived copies) seem fairly decisive. As for Down From The Tree, I emailed Sugar Quill to ask the mods, since Arabella was part of that site (perhaps founded it?), and the person who responded said that the erasure had been deliberate and that the authors didn't want their pieces to be public any longer.

I guess the question for my original post should've boiled down to: If an author doesn't want anyone to read their work, even though it exists online and I know where, do I have a moral obligation to follow their wishes and not post links? Am I being rude if I post links?

I think I'm going to go with wedjateye's solution: if the author finds my links and is displeased, they can take it up with the person who's hosting the work. After all, it's not like I'm the only one who knows how to use Google.

[valiant.livejournal.com]

I'm an writer who's purposefully tried to eliminate all traces of previous fannish works from the internet. Oh, popslash. I didn't take all my stuff down because I was ashamed - although all that stuff is awful crap - but rather my RL identity was compromised and therefore I needed to take it all down and disappear.

Unfortunately, some people who had archived my fics had also dropped off the face of the internet, so I couldn't get my fics removed from said archives. Therefore you can still find some of my really old stuff out there, and it is mortifying and I wish I could have it removed. Since they're posted publicly, and all, I can't stop people linking to them and I would never say, "Hey! Don't you DARE link to this! You have no idea what you are doing for my privacy!" but at the same time, I hate that they're still available and that I have no control over it.

All that said, I don't really know! I think I'd email the author and ask if they minded the fic or whatever being recced, but I'm overly polite and I'd hate to cause anyone discomfort.

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

I hate that they're still available and that I have no control over it.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

And you're right, it's a thorny problem.

I think I'm most at sea because the fics in question are well-written, and it seems that the writers aren't ashamed of the pieces, per se. Instead, they seem to have soured on the fandom for outside reasons, and for them the context is irrevocably linked to the fic. It isn't for anyone else, though.

I've experienced the same dilemma as a writer, though, like you have. There's fic of mine on online erotica archives, and every query I've made to the mods to have it removed has been ignored. In those cases, though, it's because I don't like having abandoned WiPs lingering around, but I'm also uncomfortable with the email I get from readers.

[kirby-crow.livejournal.com]

As someone very wise recently said (okay, it was keelywolfe!): if you have to ask if you Should, you probably Should Not.

The thing, though, is that nothing really dies on the interweb, and I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence.

I think whether or not to go against an author's stated (by action) wishes and post the links depends on whether or not you ever want those authors speaking to you again, or if, in fact, you mind being a wank-magnet. :) I can see where that kind of action might very easily end up on Fandom_Wank.

What do you think, o flist? Where should the line in the sand be drawn?

Again, do you actually mind that people who were once your fandom buddies, people whose work you used to admire, might be very angry with you at having put them to the trouble of tracking down their archived links and having their old stories deleted again? Because some of them will, and they won't thank you for the headache.

Courtesy, dear. We're adults here. Just send them an email and ask, and take no response as a negative answer. After all, it's better to ask beforehand than to apologize later.

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

Again, do you actually mind that people who were once your fandom buddies, people whose work you used to admire, might be very angry with you at having put them to the trouble of tracking down their archived links and having their old stories deleted again? Because some of them will, and they won't thank you for the headache.

Although it's really neither here nor there, the pieces in question weren't written by people I knew or have interacted with. They left or changed fandoms before I joined, and seem determined to be uncontactable regarding their involvement in HP. And, as far as I can tell, they aren't publishing under the same names anymore. In two of the three cases, I'm reading in-between the lines about their wishes; in the third, the people who wanted to delete their work (according to a third party) still managed to accidentally leave one of the pieces up, on the site they mod, where you can find it through the index. Thus, I find it hard to find their wishes (again, expressed through a third party) all that credible.

All the arguments for and against boil down to that this is a lot of bother for work that's competent but didn't change my life. And also that I'd prefer not to make anyone unhappy. And it is, essentially, angsty wankery.

So you're right, basically. :-)

[rahalia-cat.livejournal.com]

Here via a late-night friendsfriends surf, and I hope you don't mind me commenting, but this is an issue that I am facing right now.

I am in the process of taking down all of my fanfic, wherever it has been posted, because I'm now working on a novel and want none of my old (admittedly pr0n-ish) work online. I'm fine with people having it saved on their hard drives, to read when they like, but when I take my fanfic offline I want it to stay offline. Therefore I'm afraid I have issues with your following statement:

In addition, I have little patience with people who deny their previous work because they're now interested in something new.

It is often not just a case of being 'interested in something new'. For a fanfic author who has turned professional, their future career could be at stake. Even in the case of someone who is not a professional author, there could be many other reasons they wanted their fanfic offline. It might be that it could jeopardise any number of things: their job, their marriage, or their status in church.

There are many reasons why a fanfic writer might take their work offline, and denying others is probably the least of their concerns.

I'm a crafty websearcher, and therefore I found all the stuff that the authors tried to erase from existence.

They will have had their reasons for wanting that fic gone. I would hope that anyone on my friends list would respect my reasons for wanting my own fanfic gone, regardless of whether the Wayback Machine had captured it or not. I reiterate that I don't mind if they want to save a copy to read at their leisure, but re-posting it anywhere online could very well end up shattering any future career I have as a published author.

I am proud of my fanfic, and I'm glad to have had the chance to write in such great fandoms. But I want to concentrate on the future now, and on my long-held dream of seeing my name on the shelves in Waterstones and Ottakars. I don't want to spend that time worrying whether some old BDSM fic that I once wrote is going to pop up and bite me on the arse...

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

Before anything, I want to tell you that I've erred on the side of not-pissing-the-authors-off, and thus not posted the links.

That said, the problem faced was not whether to repost (which, to me, is unequivocably rude), nor to link to mirror sites or Wayback posts, but whether it was acceptable to post links to places where the authors themselves had originally posted their work, and where it still remains. The dilemma is that location -- a mailing list archive -- seems impervious to revision, and that the authors in question seem to have tried to thoroughly erase the pieces elsewhere.

In addition, unlike you (and kirby_wolf, whom I know also faced this dilemma and also opted in favour of deletion and, in addition, informed fandom of her decision), these people seem to have gotten entirely the hell out of Dodge. I figured out that Anne P=dawnatello because she has the same website address, just entirely different content. I have no idea what happened to Arabella or Firelocks, though. They don't seem to be using those aliases anymore, although it's possible I just didn't dig deep enough. There's no danger that their fanfic will rear up and bite them in the ass (again with the caveat that someone more motivated than I will start digging around) because it seems unlikely that previous work will be linked to their real selves.

Anyway. I'm done worrying about it, I think, at least until I end up finishing my own novel and have to figure out whether I want people knowing that I wrote Mal/River.

Also

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

I didn't comment on this part in my last note, but should've:

It is often not just a case of being 'interested in something new'. For a fanfic author who has turned professional, their future career could be at stake.

Whether or not "it often is," in the cases in question, it certainly seemed to be. I wasn't generalizing all instances of authors deciding to remove online postings. I do understand the dilemma, and the concern about being associated with previous stuff when you've chosen an entirely different genre to write in. Furthermore, if you're writing under the same moniker, it seems wise to make sure that confusion is avoided.

That said, I continue to be puzzled by the perception that fanfic will scuttle writing careers. I've seen several writers get signed (Naomi Novik, Meg Cabot), and their past dabblings haven't hurt them. As demonstrated neatly by the case of Cassandra Claire, publishers don't care at all about fanfiction involvement. I may be proved wrong -- after all, her first YA book hasn't officially hit shelves yet, and some reporter somewhere may dredge up the fanfic plagiarism stuff and stuff may go down. I think they're not going to bother, though.